[Iana-ipr] CWG Comments to IANA IPR License and Community Agreement

Greg Shatan gregshatanipc at gmail.com
Fri Jul 29 01:06:32 CEST 2016

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On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 6:59 PM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>

> Andrew,
> A few brief replies inline.
> Greg
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Andrew Sullivan <ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>
> wrote:
>> Hi Greg,
>> I am speaking for myself and _not_ for the Trust here.  The Trust has
>> not yet expressed a view of the position that the names community is
>> taking, and I don't want anyone to mistake my remarks below as a
>> position of the Trust.  But I too was involved in the discussions that
>> led to the Principal Terms and I think we may have different memories.
>> On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 04:33:09AM -0400, Greg Shatan wrote:
>> > comments and also find them somewhat troubling.  The "Proposed Principal
>> > Terms ​of IANA Intellectual Property Agreements" document was worked out
>> > among representatives of all the communities and the IETF Trust over
>> many
>> > months, and these comments seem to ignore or contradict many aspects of
>> > that document, which formed the design and basis for preparing the
>> actual
>> > Community Agreement and License Agreement.
>> I agree that we want to be true to the Principal Terms, but I think we
>> need to be very careful with attempting to rely too hard on that
>> document, because it also makes perfectly clear that the Trust is the
>> ultimate controller here and that it is not subject to the CCG.
>> I believe that the original drafts that were offered cleave to that
>> principal, and that the position you are taking leans further toward
>> empowering the CCG to direct the Trust in various ways.  I also recall
>> several occasions during the development of the Principal Terms in
>> which you argued for a more formal or more supervisory role for the
>> OCs -- a position that I and others then resisted as implying
>> unacceptable modifications to the Trust Agreement or else to the way
>> the Trust actually operates.  It appears to me, if I may be quite
>> frank, that you are attempting to reintroduce your position as part of
>> the negotiations over this agreement.  You're free to do that, but I
>> am no more reconciled to that mode of working now than I was many
>> months ago when we were hammering out the Principal Terms.
> ​My view is somewhat different.  I think the first draft backed away from
> a number of aspects of the Principal Terms.  I think the Principal Terms
> represented the balance and outcome of the discussions we all had about the
> relative roles of the Trust and the communities/CCG.  The intent of t​he
> second draft was to move closer to the letter and concept of the Principal
> Terms.  If there are places where we missed the mark as well, I'm sure we
> can correct for that together.  I'll also say again that there are very few
> instances where the CCG actually directs the Trust; in almost all
> instances, the Trust takes the initiative subject to advice and approval
> (but not in all cases) from the CCG.
>> I believe I was crystal clear all along that the Trust needed to
>> retain its abolute and independent control over the marks and domain
>> names, because the advice I have is that that is the only way that the
>> Trustees can ensure their ability to perform their fiduciary duty.
>> Speaking as someone on the pointy end of that duty, I feel the
> responsibility quite strongly.  I believe that the Principal Terms say
>> that the Trust holds the ultimate authority, and I do not believe that
>> the draft you have circulated is quite as faithful to those Terms as
>> you suggest.  The Terms were always ambiguous on this matter, however,
>> because we knew this was where the trouble was going to be.
> ​I think what we need to do here is strike the right balance between the
> CCG and the Trust.
> I would say that we're not there yet, and that the answer lies somewhere
> between the two drafts, so that we carry out the intentions of the
> Principal Terms and the plans that preceded it, while respecting the
> concerns of all parties.
>> This is
>> why many months ago I was pressing for us to move on to actual
>> drafting, rather than polishing the Terms document until it was shiny.
>> We chose not to do that, and now we have this problem.
>> I'm confident that with good will all around we can come to an
>> agreement in time.  But to me, that agreement should not vest too much
>> responsibility or authority in the CCG.  The normal mode of operation
>> of the IETF is to create bodies that do such work as is absolutely
>> necessary, and no more.  I think it's a good approach, and I think we
>> should design an agreement here that encourages and maximises
>> collaboration and minimises formal approval and authority.
> ​I also think we can get this done, and that there should not be "too
> much" authority vested in the CCG/communities.  But neither should there be
> too little.  I like the idea of encouraging and maximizing collaboration
> and minimizing formal approval and authority.  The more we can avoid
> hierarchy -- in either direction -- the better.  But collaboration requires
> some shared responsibility and authority and the right balance between the
> parties.  That is the key.​
>> Best regards,
>> A
>> --
>> Andrew Sullivan
>> ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
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