[CRISP-TEAM] CRISP mailing list

Fri Dec 12 02:45:38 CET 2014

German, I totally understand your intention.

You were sharing the message from NRO EC for our reference, so that we
can consider it as CRISP Team in discussing this topic. I really
appreciate that and hope you can continue sharing any inputs you hear.

What we discussed at the call, based on the question raised at the end
was, whether NRO EC makes the final decision over decision about how we
run crisp at nro.net.

If I understood your message correctly, I see you agree with what we
dicussed at the call, that the decision is upto the CRISP Team, while we
are open to hearing inputs from NRO EC, and/or anyone else from the
community.

This ofcourse doesn't mean we just do what we want, and we should make a
responsible decision, accountable to our communities.

Does this clarify your concern?

Thank you very much for sharing your concern German.
I didn't catch at the call that you had concerns about the discussions,
and appreciate you followed up here on the mailing list.

This applies for everyone as well -

I very much appreciate that you have been sharing your inputs about the
crisp at nro.net and any other topics. If you feel your point is not
properly considered or neglected, please raise it. This helps in making
a balanced decision and it's very important we all feel comfortable on
how we discuss and reach an agreement.

Izumi

(2014/12/12 0:32), German Valdez wrote:
> Id like to start with the phrase," don窶冲 shoot the messenger," I felt kind of cornered in the last question of the teleconference. As your support in this process I felt I was compelled to advise on the matter of the transparency and the importance of its perception. Except for point 6 in the CRISP chapter there is no much about internal procedures so there is plenty to be developed internally. By not having clearly defined procedures on who can talk about what the interpretation is ample. Given the current framework, I think question people's suggestions because their role and not because the merit of the idea is not the right approach and unfair, I must say.
> 
> The integration, debate and definition of the content of a single proposal is clearly your prerogative and responsibility clearly defined in the chapter.
> 
> The definition of new mailing list and its configuration and how this could impact the perception of the process should be the concern of all of us. (community and staff). Funny to say,but I think we are more or less agree, we just need a few adjustments.
> 
> Maybe at the end it窶冱 a matter of interpretation of the few rules we were given to play and at least under my view I was entitled to offer my opinion on that particular aspect as it was completely outside of the discussion of the content of the proposal.
> 
> I don窶冲 think we should enter in discussions on who are permitted to express opinions or not, it窶冱 a pointless distraction, but I窶囘 like to express my disagreement on the approach given in the just concluded call.
> 
> My opinion it窶冱 just another it窶冱 up to you make the decisions
> 
> German
> 
> 
>> On 12 Dec 2014, at 12:15 am, Sweeting, John <john.sweeting at twcable.com> wrote:
>>
>> I feel strongly that the archives should be open.
>>
>> On 12/11/14, 7:20 AM, "Mwendwa Kivuva" <Kivuva at transworldafrica.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you Izumi,
>>>
>>> I would second Nurani's comments "Within our own RIR policy making
>>> process, it is quite normal and common, that a small group of people
>>> draft text that is then presented to the whole community for feedback.
>>> So in my view, that way of working is quite in line with our basic
>>> principles of decision making."
>>>
>>> Although I don't see the harm of having publicly accessible read-only
>>> archives.
>>> ______________________
>>> Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya
>>>
>>> "There are some men who lift the age they inhabit, till all men walk
>>> on higher ground in that lifetime." - Maxwell Anderson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11 December 2014 at 12:48, Izumi Okutani <izumi at nic.ad.jp> wrote:
>>>> Thanks for your input Mwendwa.
>>>>
>>>>> If closing the crisp at nro.net will raise transparency issues,
>>>>
>>>> So far, I have't observed comments on this list that closing
>>>> crisp at nro.net
>>>> will raise transparency issues.
>>>>
>>>> (I wasn't sure from your comment whether you have issues or, you are
>>>> making
>>>> a suggestion in case there are issues)
>>>>
>>>> I note Adres and Alan expressed they are OK to have public read-only
>>>> archives -  I haven't, however, heard concerns about transparencies from
>>>> them at this stage, given we will share key information on
>>>> ianaxfer at nro.net
>>>> as described above.
>>>>
>>>> My current preference is that, *if* there are no clear concerns on
>>>> transparency issues being/to be expressed, I'd like to tolerate the
>>>> concerns
>>>> expressed about making the archives public.
>>>>
>>>> At the same time, I think it would be helpful if Nurani (and perhaps
>>>> Andrei)
>>>> would be able to share, what are the kind of confusions you would be
>>>> concerned about, given that the archives would be read-only and posting
>>>> to
>>>> be limited to CRISP Team members.
>>>>
>>>> I'll share my interpretation about mailing lists and transparency in a
>>>> seperate mail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Izumi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (2014/12/11 16:21), Mwendwa Kivuva wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If closing the crisp at nro.net will raise transparency issues, then we
>>>>> should
>>>>> open it to read-only and have all archives publicly accessible.
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________
>>>>> Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "There are some men who lift the age they inhabit, till all men walk on
>>>>> higher ground in that lifetime." - Maxwell Anderson
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11 December 2014 at 07:08, Izumi Okutani <izumi at nic.ad.jp> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Andres and all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Thanks for the consideration. I do not have a strong position, just
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wanted that we can discuss more about the rationale behind this
>>>>>>> desition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed it is helpul you raised this point. I also think it's
>>>>>> important we
>>>>>> have clear rationale we can explain to our communities. Thank you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Understood you don't have a strong position.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   I totally understand Andrei・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・スs and
>>>>>> Nurani・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・スs point of view and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>> comfortable with providing information to the Communitu at the global
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will be OK with this procedure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK. Thanks for sharing your input.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I saw Allan's post that :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   - He's OK to keep the archives of crisp at nro.net to be open (read
>>>>>> only)
>>>>>>   - If we keep it closed, we should share key information on the
>>>>>> global
>>>>>>     list, such as our plan to post minutes of meetings, notices of
>>>>>>     meetings, and draft documents on the global list
>>>>>> (ianaxfer at nro.net)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with sharing key information to the global list, and infact,
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> is something we already do for meeting plans and minutes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps we can work with closed archive for crisp at nro.net and keep
>>>>>> transparency & community engagement at the same time, if we work this
>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone else feels differently? If so, it helps if you could raise it
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the list before the coming teleconference, as much as possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll do a quick confirmation at the teleconferene today (11 Dec) to
>>>>>> make
>>>>>> sure everyone is comfortable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Izumi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (2014/12/11 1:09), Andres wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Izumi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for the consideration. I do not have a strong position, just
>>>>>>> wanted that we can discuss more about the rationale behind this
>>>>>>> desition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I totally understand Andrei・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・スs and
>>>>>>> Nurani・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・スs point of view and
>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>> comfortable with providing information to the Communitu at the global
>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will be OK with this procedure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andr・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・スs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> El 10/12/2014 a las 12:25 p.m., Izumi Okutani
>>>>>>> escribi・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Thanks for raising this Andres. I think it's good to clarify.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I understood Andrei's and Nurani's point as it's important we share
>>>>>>>> and engage with the communities once a draft proposal is ready but
>>>>>>>> sharing the working process at this stage may cause confusions,
>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>> it may not necessarily achieve openness desired .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andres, do you feel keeping the below option described by Nurani
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> help address your concern/intention, while keeping the archives of
>>>>>>>> crisp at nro.net closed?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (But it is of course of utmost importance that we also engage with
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the community through the ianxfer list, as well as our own regional
>>>>>>>> communities.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Each CRIPS members are free to update the progress with their
>>>>>>>> communities as necessary ofcourse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's important that we all feel comfortable with community
>>>>>>>> engagement,
>>>>>>>> so certainly would like to hear if you/anyone else have concerns
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> this approach.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Izumi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (2014/12/10 21:14), Nurani Nimpuno wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 10 dec 2014, at 12:49, Andrei Robachevsky <robachevsky at isoc.org>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   Hi Andr・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・スs, all,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Andres wrote on 10/12/14 12:21:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Germ・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・スn,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A couple of questions for the rest of the colleagues:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Is this list expected to be closed just for us leaving the
>>>>>>>>>>> IANAXFER
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> the global community? Are those your expectations?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is my expectation indeed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   I wonder if it would be better to open our list for observers
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> cannot post, just read. Would the rest of the CRISP team agree
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> that?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'd prefer to complete the necessary few iterations to produce the
>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>> coherent draft response here, within a small group on a closed
>>>>>>>>>> mailinglist and then bring it as soon as possible to the open
>>>>>>>>>> ianaxfer
>>>>>>>>>> where we can fully engage with the community, provide
>>>>>>>>>> justification
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> concrete points, incorporate feedback, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> IMO allowing observers to browse through public archives may
>>>>>>>>>> increase
>>>>>>>>>> confusion and doesn't really contribute to the openness of the
>>>>>>>>>> process.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I fully agree with Andrei here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Given the very aggressive timeline, we need to be able to work
>>>>>>>>> efficiently in this group. Or we risk not meeting the set deadline.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (But it is of course of utmost importance that we also engage with
>>>>>>>>> the community through the ianxfer list, as well as our own regional
>>>>>>>>> communities.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>>>> Nurani
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Andrei
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Andr・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・スs
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> El 10/12/2014 a las 04:01 a.m., German Valdez
>>>>>>>>>>> escribi・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス・ス:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> By now you must have received a notification of your
>>>>>>>>>>>> subscription
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> CRISP-TEAM mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Please let me know if you'd like to add any alternative emails.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> AFRINIC
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> kivuva at transworldafrica.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> apb at cequrux.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> ernest at afrinic.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> APNIC
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> izumi at nic.ad.jp
>>>>>>>>>>>> drgovind at nic.in
>>>>>>>>>>>> craig at apnic.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ARIN
>>>>>>>>>>>> john.sweeting at twcable.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> woody at pch.net
>>>>>>>>>>>> mabejuela at arin.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> LACNIC
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> nico.scheper at cw.ams-ix.net
>>>>>>>>>>>> esteban at lescano-etcheverry.com.ar
>>>>>>>>>>>> andres at lacnic.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> RIPE NCC
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> nurani at netnod.se
>>>>>>>>>>>> robachevsky at isoc.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> rendek at ripe.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> NRO Secretariat
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> german at nro.net
>>>>>>>>>>>> secretariat at nro.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> German
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> CRISP mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> CRISP at nro.net
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nro.net/mailman/listinfo/crisp
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> CRISP mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> CRISP at nro.net
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nro.net/mailman/listinfo/crisp
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> CRISP mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> CRISP at nro.net
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nro.net/mailman/listinfo/crisp
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> CRISP mailing list
>>>>>>>>> CRISP at nro.net
>>>>>>>>> https://www.nro.net/mailman/listinfo/crisp
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> CRISP mailing list
>>>>>>>> CRISP at nro.net
>>>>>>>> https://www.nro.net/mailman/listinfo/crisp
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> CRISP mailing list
>>>>>>> CRISP at nro.net
>>>>>>> https://www.nro.net/mailman/listinfo/crisp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CRISP mailing list
>>>>>> CRISP at nro.net
>>>>>> https://www.nro.net/mailman/listinfo/crisp
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CRISP mailing list
>>>> CRISP at nro.net
>>>> https://www.nro.net/mailman/listinfo/crisp
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CRISP mailing list
>>> CRISP at nro.net
>>> https://www.nro.net/mailman/listinfo/crisp
>>
>>
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> 